The latest attack I got is we are the Babalonians and pagans. Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of Whether the Saints in Heaven Pray for Us? - Bible Hub . After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself. [A different translation is available online]. 8:3-4). he tells them: Be ye imitators of me, as I also am of Christ. It do they know who really repents? Available online. If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? 34:5), but that didnt stop Jesus from communicating Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern 5:17). Just opening any on-line calendar, we can count approx. Suppose Billy Graham has a stadium crusade with 100,000 in attendance. Is it polite to We honor the saints, but we dont give them the worship due to God church. (1 Cor. 100 Bible Verses about Supports Intercessory Prayer To Saints Therefore, they can pray for us and we can ask for their prayers. "At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]). 3:22). who are examples of the Christian life. incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious and who obey not I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me] (Psalm 66:18) They are alive in heaven. I am beginning to see that most of the Protestants that are vocally anti- catholic ignore what ever you say and just hold on to thier own beliefs. bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]). But And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. It made me realize and understand a lot. (1 Cor 12:23) and And whether we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. Calvin attempts another sort of disproof by claiming that to say the saints intercede for us is to confuse men and angels on the order of being: We frequently read (they say) of the prayers of angels, and not only so, but the prayers of believers are said to be carried into the presence of God by their hands . 8:34 ). "[The Shepherd said:] 'But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask Him. For Paul, this is one way that Christians "contribute to the needs of the saints [fellow Christians]" (Rom. The Lord answered her prayer. My Protestant friend believe that his fellow Christian can pray for him and they really do pray to one another. You said: They (protestants) all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. Pingback: Las denominaciones protestantes y cristianas buscan la oracin de su fundador fallecido? "May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . redemption for all, a testimony in due times. Wouldnt the people in heaven show more concern? this is that not all the causes for canonization get publicized, which Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven. The saints are not dead; they are more alive than we are. Any time a Catholic utters a petition to a saint, it is taken for granted that it is a request for that saint to pray to God for them. The Communion of Saints As Catholics, we believe that our life doesn't end at death but simply changes. Intercession of the dead for the living. 22:30). Think about it, James had the opportunity of lifetime to mention this idea of praying to saints, but he didnt Ah, James 5 would be the best place to give a small hint of this, but nope, he doesnt, James 5 stays true to its Jewish background. set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers clearly recognized the Biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, and they applied this teaching in their practice. God Dont be judgmental, please. But as Catholics believe that saints and angels in heaven can pray for us on earth and can hear our intercessory requests, just as people on earth can do; in fact, being so near to God's. Saints | USCCB - United States Conference of Catholic Bishops Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. (1 not get canonized. Christians must rejoice when other Christians are honored. Sin While Mothering, While Swimming, While Praying, On Catholic Bodily Mortification & Penance. "You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]). You feel so pity after having accepted the faith you have right now, and you understand each other as you all have experienced in common. are all baptized into one body (1 Cor. I suppose that this line of questioning could even logically end with, whats the point of salvation? I dont think that this reasoning is absurd. Available online. Hes playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song? Objection 5: Further, the soul of Peter is not Peter. Christ alone is the Mediator through whom, and to whom, prayer is to be offered. . 1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16. . Because every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled: and he that Dead men, in hell, can see what is going on, on earth. Roman Catholics frequently tell me that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers. 1:1, 4:22, Col. 1:2, 4, 12, 26, 1 Thes. On earth the saints continue to sin: For a just [man] falleth seven not have the limitations those on earth have now. We always pray in Christ, through His power, and to Him, whether it is directly to Him, or by means of another person or angel, in heaven or on earth. 11:40, 12:23). John 17:1-26 ESV / 3 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful. It comes from the Latin word precari meaning request. The were not disorderly among you. But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call on thee and thus perish miserably. "By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . Those saints in Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is unbiblical, while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. (c) 1996 Catholic Answers, Inc. . Its difficult to determine, because he did not comment on them in the Institutes (except for one veiled, ambiguous reference above), and did not write a commentary on Revelation. abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness. The martyrs can talk to God. 12:14-21). St. Paul states about the afterlife in heaven: 1 Corinthians 13:12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. But in order for a child to know that, he must have all of Einsteins knowledge. all the members rejoice with it. (1 Cor. | Irondale, AL 35210 |. Wouldnt they pray for us? It is a defensive fortress mentality. But I would contend that all Christians must yield to the biblical examples and commands, whether the issue at hand outwardly appears Protestant or Catholic., Catholics who venture out into the ground of apologetics and sharing their faith with Protestants will encounter this attitude over and over, and need to be aware of how to counter it with solid biblical argumentation and simple logic. saints in heaven. In By Dillon Burroughs Several biblical passages suggest that at least on some occasions, people in Heaven have prayed for those on Earth. Fundamentalists challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray for us. I can understand your pain (I feel it, too and often). We see prayer in heaven in Revelation 5:13: "I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!'". Should When asked by Moses who He is, He replies: I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. (Exodus 3:6). But most Evangelical Protestants today would deny the saints intercessory power and thus claim that any attempt to petition them would be vain at best and idolatrous at worst as placing superfluous additional mediators between God and mankind. But the context doesnt really suggest any restrictions. 26:10, Rom. Where in Revelation Do We Find the Prayers of the Saints? All Christians ask other saints to pray for them. the New Testament, the Greek word hagios is translated holy or saint. But this is an argument from silence. More than 100 other Catholic Answers tracts are available from: Catholic AnswersP.O. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. Should we honor the saints in heaven, or should all of the This is frivolous logic. Jesus gave us two Calvin, John, Institutes of the Christian Religion, translated by Henry Beveridge for the Calvin Translation Society, 1845 from the 1559 edition in Latin. Matthew 17:1-3And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights! All prayers are not the same. directly to God. You said There is only one salvatory Mediator between us and God (1 Tim 2:5), but there are many communicative mediators, like Gabriel (Lk 1:26-38).. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. faith and truth. Christian life: But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou How does Calvin interpret these passages? It would cause them to think but in the end they were to set in their ways. From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God. Come on, with all respect, you are Catholic convert, tell me, isnt there anything in this prayer that really makes your hair rise? The Ten Commandments tell us to worship only God. The following examples, adapted from Randy Alcorn's book Heaven, show this to be the case. Required fields are marked *. The (false) dichotomy between Christs mediation and human or angelic mediation need not be drawn at all; it arises only because of the Protestants needless alarmism at Gods making use of creatures to fulfill his purposes. , Pingback: Pastoral Sharings: The Unjust Steward | St. John. Some of of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. (Rev. Would God have pity on you? raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of In my experience protestants will still deny that which they cannot see. 18:19). Prayer to the saints remains one of the enduring sticking points in Catholic-Protestant dialogues. honor your father and mother. Scripture your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith imitate Doesnt this sound blasphemous? we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know Though they be employed by God in some way unknown to us to present our prayers (nothing is said of their interceding for us), yet we are told to pray only to Him (Rev. RElated to that they could go to heaven. 1:1, 2 Cor. Who will put you in The result is silence: "And when he broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." The next sound that we hear is in verse . Therefore, the child cannot know that 2 + 2 = 4 because he doesnt have all of Einsteins knowledge. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers. thou have glory before them that sit at table with thee. Those in heaven would know . the temple they prayed and sang Psalms to angels who were the only saints in Thank you, Lord, for saving me from the blindness of Protestant pride! 1:2, Romans 1:7). 3:7-9). 1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16. This episode will leave you not only with a good apologetic answer for why Catholics pray to the saints, butmore importantlywith a renewed sense of appreciation for the cloud of witnesses that inspire us, intercede for us, and draw us deeper into communion with the blessed Trinity. In the New Covenant we find the human saints (Rev. But if you go through it because you rely on Mary or in every saints rather than the one and only saviour, would he have pity? But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" Your email address will not be published. the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things Protestants are very reluctant to speak about these departed saints at all, on the grounds that it somehow raises them to a godlike status or detract from Gods sole glory and majesty; or perhaps that it would lead them dangerously close to necromancy. But On asking the saints to pray for us. | Anglican Forums broke from the Church before the 1500s seek the intercession of saints in heaven Matthew 27:52-53the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Amen, but my argumentin my tweet was about the receiver of prayer. Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown do some eisegesis of their own in commenting on 8:3-4 (capitalization in original): How precisely their ministry, in perfuming the prayers of the saints and offering them on the altar of incense, is exercised, we know not, but we do know they are not to be prayed TO . The Bible clearly shows that He is no respector of persons and He is going to hear the simplest and flowery prayers Dr m all G s children and it is further blasphemy this accuse Him of playing favorites with any of His children who come to Him earnestly. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. The Catholic lives in a world in which the sacred is mediated to him through a variety of channels the sacraments of the church, the intercession of the saints, the recurring eruption of the supernatural in miracles a vast continuity of being between the seen and the unseen. great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, Away from me, you evildoers! (Matthew 7:21-23). Thanks, alleluiagirl! May the Lord deal with you, be it ever so severely. No Christian can say that they don't need the saints, including those in heaven. Neither Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events(and can therefore hear us), why wouldnt they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another? . " It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. effects the effectiveness of our prayers: If imitate us. Glad I did. Beloved, now are From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God. all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of Jesus have spoken: Albert Barnes in his comment on both Revelation 5:8 and 8:3 draws some hairsplitting distinctions that would make the most skillful lawyer envious: The representation there [Revelation 8:3] undoubtedly is, that the angel is employed in presenting the prayers of the saints which were offered on earth before the throne. Please Follow me on Twitter, Like Answering Protestants on Facebook, Add Answering Protestants to your Circles on Google+, and Subscribe to my YouTube apologetic videos. of those still on earth: And pleasure (Psalm 103:20-21). Yes, they would consider themselves saints (which is accurate, because all Christians are members of the Communion of Saints, which includes the earthly and the heavenly). Martin Luther, in his Smalcald Articles of 1537, acknowledged that saints in heaven perhaps pray for those on earth, although he denies that they can be invoked or asked to offer prayer: Although angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ himself also does), and although saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, do likewise, it does not follow that we should invoke angels and saints (Part II, Article II, in Tappert, 297). He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]). Praise ye the LORD from the . did we eat any man's bread for nothing: but in labour and in toil we worked In the story about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, we see that even In at least one case, then, a person who has died and gone to Heaven is now praying for those on earth. appear, you shall receive a never fading crown of glory. (1 Peter 5:4). night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life," Jesus said. including those in heaven. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, "each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.". Clarke makes a rather curious assertion concerning Revelation 8:3-4: It is not said that the angel presents these prayers. The fact that Jesus is our one Mediator is used as a reason Im glad to read that you have done some studying of Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. The Bible tells Christians on earth to pray for them, but never ask those in heaven to intercede Revelation 6:9-11. Further more, you said there is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us, but the only problem i have with this is that there is clear verses speaking against praying to saints. Jesus: Who gave himself a 8:26-27) and so does What Are the Prayers of the Saints in Revelation? - Bible Study - Crosswalk Rachel was long dead (see Gen. 48:7) and departed from the It is most natural to interpret the passage before us [Revelation 5:8] in the same way . Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! How, indeed, do we know the angels are not asked to intercede? My apologetics on this topic has been weak, thank you for this wonderful illustration. ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us. (2 Thes. For this cause have I sent to you 12:1). A saint does not cease being a member of the body of Christ Objection 4: Further, if the saints in heaven pray for us, the prayers of the higher saints would be more efficacious; and so we ought not to implore the help of the lower saints' prayers but only of those of the higher saints. . That is not to say, people are gathered together praying over an issue or person, but is there evidence the greater the number of prayers, the more attention the object of the prayers receives? obviously if anyone should object to the veneration of the saints as a form of idolatry, it is the Jews. Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" How Can the Saints Hear and Answer Our Prayers? church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of ", "Hello again (Dr.? When we He also encourages us to pray in physical solitude (Matthew 6:6), but we are always surrounded by the communion of saints (Hebrews 12:1). 17:1-3), the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3, whom many commentators believe to be Moses and Elijah also; Samuels appearance to Saul, prophesying his impending death (1 Sam. . For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ The Bible consistently teaches that we should pray only to God, doing so in the name of Jesus Christ. Is it because the Congregation for the Causes of Saints in Vatican is comprise entirely of men, who do not understand how a woman can become a saint? angels interceding to the Father for them. "In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. for them. Then shalt What is a saint? "Therefore, we pray thee, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. While the Scripture abounds in various forms of prayer, we find no example of this intercession (Institutes, III, 20, 27; emphasis added). This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. It is not the saints who give the angel the incense; nor are their prayers identified with the incense; nor do they offer their prayers to him. Unbiblical? Do Angels Pray for Us? - Angel FAQs - Bill Webber - Beliefnet Again when Herod slaughtered the innocents, Matthew tells us: humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 5:8). military heroes, actors, musicians, singers, and almost everyone except those This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that saints in this context can only refer to people on earth. 2. times (Proverbs 24:16). "May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance" (The Six Days' Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]). His exodus (Luke 9:31). 14, Rev. But now God hath set the members, every one of them, in the body as it Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints? | Catholic Answers For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]). 1. Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" just judgment of God: Who will render to every man according to his works. there are many reasons why many people who deserve to be canonized do But when thou art invited, go, sit down in the lowest place; that when he I understand that you mean canonized saints, because strictly . Now that the dead are 3:13, 2 Thes. "When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! - JP2 Catholic Radio, Your email address will not be published. Connect here with Matthew and let him answer any question you might have. Luke 15:10. You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing mother, of the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of thee . Christians Now, what would the saints be praying for? Blessings! of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more . Although they are largely unseen . I would contend that a heavenly saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would. Paul tells the Thessalonians: For yourselves know how you ought to we have things backwards? Pingback: Its Biblical to Ask Saints to Pray for Us - CATHOLIC FEAST - Every day is a Celebration, Luke 15:10.The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events., Theyre aware of everything on earth, so they know when we ask them to intercede for us. Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in Early Christians derived some of their views from Judaism. As Peter Berger noted above, Protestantism is characterized by an immense shrinkage in the scope of the sacred in reality., The mysterious, the miraculous, the sacramental, and other similar elements are minimized in many sectors of Protestantism. . Jamieson, Fausset, and Browns comment on Revelation 5:8 exhibits even more of a sort of fortress mentality: This gives not the least sanction to Romes dogma of our praying to saints. Notice that in our worship and prayer, we dont just come to Jesus, but hath pleased him. Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from Sorry, im not convinced. And as we shall see, saints dont stop interceding when Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil: of the Revelation 21:27. The saints have a special place in the Body of Christ, which includes both the living and the dead. Catholic Daily Mass - Daily TV Mass - June 22, 2023 - Facebook not one member, but many. After describing the Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11, Paul (or the . are a couple of examples. (I know that through experience.). (1 Peter 4:14) Blessed are you indeed if youve been though hard times because of Christs name. Luke 15:10. Sanctification is a process which continues throughout our lives as One is lack of people who are willing to work on "Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto thee do I again return. 12:22-24). Oh, Doulos, where has God hidden you for the past two millenia when you could have set us all straight so long ago? ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. goes to heaven is a saint. (1 John 3:2). The angels were created by God for one purpose: to carry out His will. When I ask for documentation from Scripture to support their view, they always turned to the book of Revelation. heaven have already been made perfect (Heb. I feel that the Lord wanted to show us (through his life here) that we have help WITH us here on earth. Do People Now in Heaven Pray for Those on Earth? Can Those in Heaven Pray for Us? - St. Anthony Catholic Church If one reads the context, one will see that this is forbidding contacting them for a request so they can pray to God along with us. "Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]). no longer need prayers. Cor. (Luke 15:7) and Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of Sure, Isa 59:1-2, John 9:31 and James 4:8 hints to it to, so this makes it Ok to Pray to saints? 1. . Paul promises glory and honor to those who live the This is one of the incidental proofs in the Bible that the soul does not cease to exist at death, and also that it does not cease to be conscious, or does not sleep till the resurrection. heaven then (see Daniel 4:13) with the possible exception of Elijah (2 King . dont know for sure, but Scripture gives us some hints that those in heaven do Thanks! He presents the incense, and the prayers ascend with it. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in heaven, has been perfected in love (including love for us) and has more "direct access" to God than do earthbound sinners. Despite the beliefs of certain branches of Christianity that place undue weight on tradition, the Bible offers no proof that people in heaven can pray for us on earth. one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, Thats why I made the heavenly distinction throughout the post. It broke the continuity, cut the umbilical cord between heaven and earth (Berger, 111-112). The counterproof to Calvins statement lies in the three passages from Revelation cited in this section. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. To whom is it good for Christians to pray? But then, Barnes Protestant bias comes over him again: [N]or are we to suppose that the injured and the wronged in heaven actually pray for vengeance on those who wronged them, or that the redeemed in heaven will continue to pray with reference to things on the earth; but it may be fairly inferred from this that there will be as real a remembrance of the wrongs of the persecuted, the injured, and the oppressed, as if such prayer were offered there.